Communicating and Marketing your Value 8.14.24 - Replay


Good evening for those in the East Coast, and I guess good evening too in the West Coast.

Right?

I mean, we are evening time.

Right, Jen?

We are, yeah, we are seven o'clock in the west.

Alright. Very cool.

Lewis, David, Lewis, and Natalie Cox are raising your hands so that you can promote them to panelists, please.

Perfect.

Thank you. Nice, Robert.

We have our, founder, CEO, and DJ tonight, Robert Palmer. Look at that.

Credit LPT, man. At thirteen hours into this daily marathon, we gotta bring a little thunder and a little heat at night. Nice.

I'm feeling it.

Very good. So we're just gonna give it two more minute, guys. Two more minutes.

A good little crew loading in tonight at ten PM on the East Coast. I like it.

When do you guys sleep?

We're getting some shout outs too from the East Coast. You see Port Saint Lucie, Boynton Beach, Daytona Beach.

We got central time with Texas, Fairmont, Stuart, Florida, another San Antonio, East Tennessee. Alright.

I've seen lots of my team here.

There'll be there'll be time to sleep after the IPO.

There it is. There it is. I guess we'll begin in one more minute. We still have the attendance counts increasing, so we're gonna let them stabilize here in the next minute, and we'll go ahead and begin.

Alright. Peterson requesting a little Robert Brown music. Let me see if I can let me see if I can accommodate that.

I like it.

Is that a we had a request we had a request come in.

This is unique to the ten o'clock session. We don't get into this stuff before, before ten PM eastern time.

I don't know. I mean, maybe we'll surprise everybody at nine AM tomorrow and just, like, crank it up.

Oh, man. Awesome. Alright. Alright, guys. Well, it's ten o three. We're gonna go ahead and get started here this evening.

Welcome, guys, to another, post NARS settlement session. You know, as, you know, we've been going through these classes. We're very excited to, you know, hop in here and share, you know, recent updates, share mindset stuff. We had an amazing class at seven PM earlier today, eastern time with NARS changes one zero one.

We have another one of those rolling tomorrow evening at ten. So if you did not attend that one, I strongly encourage that you do. That's one of the classes in which we will put up slides. We will pull up a PowerPoint and really go through different, elements as it pertains to the generalized NARS settle settlement.

We always will encourage you to still go to your state specific classes guide. That's where you will get the granular level changes that are happening in your state. But this evening, our topic that we will be going over is communicating and marketing your value.

You know, this is where, you know, we are as as we've discussed in some of these other classes, if you've tuned in, this whole transition from the how to to now let's really utilize this as an opportunity for you to reposition yourself in a very different place relative to our agents. You know, we are gonna have agents that you may be competing with in which they may not have the confidence. They may not know how to articulate and communicate their value. They may not know how to negotiate and and overcome the issues that are currently being faced, and we wanna give you guys the nuggets to be able to go in there and perform at a high degree. So to get this started, Robert, do you wanna, you know, kinda start us off?

Yeah. I mean, I I love this topic. I mean, I I love this whole couple days has been great. I it was funny.

I had somebody ask me, you know, like, Robert, you guys could have just recorded one Zoom and played it, you know, whatever, fifty times. But, you know, like, I just I think there's been so much value, and you need content that we're creating. Everything is being recorded. Everything will be in knowledge base.

But, you know, just having these conversations in real time and helping prepare everybody for the it's just the conversations. And to get out there and to have the communication with their clients is just, this is such an important time. And this is really why we are a people business. You know, we're probably one of the the biggest people businesses out there and it's why we didn't get disintermediated.

We didn't get destroyed like travel agents and, you know, we're still here and we're still fighting and consumers need us. And it it is times like this when that becomes more important than ever. And I think this unique strategy that we took as a broker say, you know what? Let's get together in community five times a day for two weeks straight and just give our agents the opportunity to to be a part of the discussion, have real live conversations, not just replay Zoom, not just do this one time.

I think it really has been impactful. And I've had a lot of great feedback from agents who have enjoyed these, and we're only two days in. I this is session number ten. You know, we got a long way to go, over the next eight days as we continue to pour into you guys.

It's been nice because we've gotten real time feedback. We've we've uncovered issues that you are facing, you know. We we hear in the chat, we hear the feedback, you know. The things that are out there that are happening that maybe aren't fair, that maybe aren't right because of those bad drivers on the road.

And so, all those things are so important. But but tonight, I think, is really critical because this idea of like, how do you market yourself? How do you market your value? Because I think this is something that we're all dealing with right now.

And, you know, you guys know I'm I'm a big mindset guy. The psychology of this whole thing is is really important and it's fascinating to me. And, you know, in my personal career going back to mortgage when, you know, when Dodd Frank happened and we went through a very similar change, where we're now much earlier in the process, we had to start communicating our value. We had to get consumers to commit to points and fees and things very similar to the way they're committing to commission now very, very early in the process.

And and there's some big things I learned and I think that's really what, you know, I'm interested in sharing tonight. We've got a great panel. I love seeing how many folks from our side came out tonight for this ten o'clock class. Because again, we really are here to share value.

But the big thing is, again, your mindset in value, I think, is where it all starts. And and and I think where some agents maybe are gonna struggle is that you you have to believe first and foremost. I mean, that's one of the things that we're really here to help with from the LPT side. You know, on the listing side, having listing power tools, having you go into those listing presentations with confidence, I think is now more important than ever because consumers are gonna be asking different types of questions.

Consumers are gonna be looking for different types of guidance, and you showing up as that expert is more important than ever. You know, having having things like the seven home buyer strategies, and we have so many more tools coming out. You know, we made the strategic decision to not launch new tools in the middle of this window. You know, we had a lot of discussions around this at the corporate level.

When is the right time to bring new tools to the table to help with this? And and again, we made a strategic decision to say, we have to get the blocking and tackling down first. We have to arm the agents with the conversations, with the communication, with the information they need to go win. We need to make sure that our agents are experts on the state level forms.

We need to make sure that agents are experts on using the existing tools like Dotloop in this new world of getting, you know, buyer broker agreement signed, getting commission addendums executed. And then once we know we are tight there, we are solid there, then we've got all these great tools that LPT wants to bring to the table. But again, strategically, we decided that this is about you all. You know, this was not about LPT, you know, showing off in the in the midst of these changes or, you know, trying to overcomplicate things with technology, which is very much, you know, who I am.

I love the technology. I love the marketing. But we had to get you guys armed with the knowledge first because that's what's most important. The most important thing of all this is our almost twelve thousand agents here at LPT being knowledgeable and being confident and believing in themselves.

Because, again, we we can put tools out there to give you those crutches, but you have to believe in yourself first, and you have to have the knowledge, you have to have the understanding, and that is what this two week marathon is all about. And and this was the best way we could come up with to do it. You know, we've been doing amazing classes for months now at the state level and education and trainings. But we said, you know, we need to bring something different. We need to bring something higher profile. We need to bring something unique. We need to bring something very LPT.

And I think that's what these five conversations and classes and live zooms a day is really built to do. So getting into that value, one, you have a value. And and most consumers, you know, I again, I learned this in the mortgage space. I've seen it now in the real estate space, you know, the last couple of years.

By and large, most consumers value the service that we provide. You know, the the consumer wants that expert. They want that person they trust. They want that person who they enjoy being around, someone they like, someone that they can build a relationship with, have rapport with guiding them through what is the most important and largest transaction of their life.

And this this goes for both sides of the table, both both buyer and seller. And and from there, you know, we get into this where where the the the lawyers in these cases and the headlines and the news and this, oh, real estate commissions are gonna come down and all of this noise really was built to try to devalue who we are. Right? To tell us that as an industry, we're not worth what we were getting paid or that somehow the only reason we got paid what we got paid is because the system was somehow rigged.

And I just don't I don't believe that to be the case at all. And and I I'm so proud and excited to see, as we navigate this together, that that proof coming through and everyone understanding, you know what, I bring value to this transaction, and I'm now able to communicate that value to my buyers, to my sellers. I'm able to align with my buyers upfront and and agree on compensation and get get an, a document signed that that aligns us there. And, you know, what if a buyer and I are not aligned on the compensation conversation, I get to find that out early.

Right? I see that as a blessing. Instead of finding it out later, where maybe they're asking me for a commission rebate at the eleventh hour or we end up on a home where the listing agent has devalued me for nothing I did wrong, just they decided to lower the commission on the buy side versus sell side. Like, those days are behind us now.

We get to communicate our value. We get to enter into an agreement with our buyer, the person we are representing on the buy side that is just about our value. Right? And so so the big thing for step one is believe in your value and believe in yourself.

And believe me when I tell you that you do have value. You do bring value to this process. And consumers want that value. Consumers want an advocate on their side.

They want an advocate in their court. And so that's the first thing. Is you you you have to believe it. Right?

And I think we've been told so much that we're not valuable, that we don't bring value to the process. Again, this is noise coming from people trying to drive clicks on articles and headlines and click bait and controversy, and it is just not the reality of the actual consumers out there doing business. And and we've heard so many amazing stories of this just in the last couple of weeks as we've started having these conversations in local trainings, and now in the last forty eight hours as we're having, you know, this this marathon of of BBA discussion. Consumers do see the value.

And and if you are confident in who you are, and you are confident in your skills and you can communicate those skills, getting a buyer broker agreement signed at whatever commission you think you deserve is not, is not as big of a hurdle as I think everyone thought it was gonna be. It's not as a bigger of a hurdle as the news wanted us to believe, as the clickbait articles want us to believe. You know, we are hearing agents right now continuing to negotiate the commission that they are worth in those buyer broker agreements. And now they have that level of protection because that that negotiation happened upfront.

And now the actual house you land on, there's a second negotiation now. Right? To negotiate for the seller to provide a concession or to provide some percentage of that compensation, maybe a percentage that was already prenegotiated by listing it. There's so many more ways and dynamic ways to get that money at the actual transaction.

But the important part is your agreement with the buyer upfront or your agreement with the seller upfront if you're on the listing side. So with that, I wanna turn it over to our amazing panel. Shay, this is our first, our first Zoom together. So I'm gonna throw it out to you first.

Shay is one of our amazing broker in Texas, and, yeah, this is the first Zoom we've done together, so I'm gonna I'm gonna throw it over there. I wanna see what Shay has on on our BBA marathon here.

Sure. You know, when when we talk about value, I think, first and foremost, consumers don't choose agents because of all the letters behind their names. Although those letters are important, those designations, the the learning, the training, our our dedication to being better, but they use our services and they choose us because they connect with us. They like us. They they trust us. They believe in us. There's already so many times a hurdle that we've already jumped over simply to be in those spaces and to be allowed to to have those opportunities, to have those conversations.

And I think the more that we lean in with that authenticity, with that, care and concern that we are their advocate to to help walk them through what's possibly the the largest transaction of their life.

I I just believe that goes such a long way.

Yeah. Fantastic. I love it. Jen McDonald coming to us from Nevada. How are you doing tonight?

I'm, like, a million dollars.

So earlier well, last week, I'm gonna sign so in Jen's state, she has to sign the buyer broker agreements.

I know you've been signing these things like crazy. You know?

I've yeah. I have to sign everything. Buyer every buyer broker agreement, referral, commission.

So, I mean, for for me, I get to see what the buyers, brokers are writing, if they're trying to, you know, go rogue on the agreement. But, you know, I was thinking yesterday what what value could I provide as a as a broker to agents. Right? And I remembered, back right after the settlement, I was quoted in the New York Times.

And the reporter called me, and she said it was right after the settlement, and she said, hey. Can I quote you? And I said, maybe. And she said, tell me the differences between a brand new agent and a veteran agent.

And I said, oh, well, I don't really think that applies here. I think it's it's not if you're veteran or brand new. I said it's how you navigate the system. You know, the more prepared you are with the settlement, the more prepared you are with your forms, understanding the questions, being able to present that.

You know? I'm not a big scripts person necessarily, but because I feel like things need to come out naturally. But at the same time, the more prepared you are, it doesn't matter if you're brand new or you're thirty years in the business as long as your presentation is there and you're you're aware of the the stipulations, you know the forms, I think that's oh, Diana. Thank you.

I I think that's most important. It's not about how many years you've been in the business. It's what you do you know about the the settlement, how much confidence do you have, how knowledgeable you are. And that's truly what I feel is, you know, how you create value.

Everyone's seen, everyone's seen this the headlines. Right? Have they read the articles?

Probably not.

But every buyer and seller's read headlines. The more that you have in your knowledge base, if you will, the more knowledge that you have about what is actually happening is to create the value for you.

Yeah. So, Jen, on on all those buyer's agreements you've been seeing, are you seeing commissions drop? Are you seeing commission compression? I mean, right, I mean, it seems like business as usual. Yeah.

No. It is business. It oh, somebody yeah. No. It is business as usual. I mean, I don't if I went through my email today, I probably signed seventy or eighty biobroker agreements.

They're all three percent, and there's no additional terms. There's no issues. Like, it truly is business as usual. It's Yeah.

It's I feel like it's how agents present it, how they create the momentum. I mean, it's such it's I really do look at it as, like, it's a good this is a good change. I mean, are there is it confusing? Yes.

Like, some contradicting information?

Sure. But it's what agents make of it. And, it's the way we used to do the everything in the old days. Old days.

Yeah. Awesome. Cool. Thanks for that, Jen. David Lewis joining us. He's actually, you know, out of Atlanta, but he's in Orlando right now.

We've got some meetings tomorrow. You had a great class this morning at ten AM, and I we're gonna make that part of the official marathon and kinda on the back half of next week. You know, share some of your thoughts with us, on this creating value. And and, again, it's something I know I know you've done for a long time in your team and your business.

You know, you guys are selling about three hundred homes a year. I know there's a lot of building value in what you do and and, you know, how how confident does that make you going into these changes, and what are some tips you can share with our our agents this evening?

Yeah, guys. I I I love it, specifically.

I I think this is an opportunity for everyone, and I'm not the compliance guy. Like, I can't tell you what boxes to fill out or what to check and, honestly, what forms. Like, I'm gonna figure that part out later. But the thing that has me the most excited is the scope of opportunity that we all have in front of us.

Right? Before, we lived in a world where someone else was defining our ability to make money. And as an entrepreneur and someone who is you know, will shout from the highest mountain top how valuable I am at all given times, like, I am like, dude, this is it. I was built for this.

So, yeah, we hosted a great class at ten AM where we went through specifically understanding value and Guys, then it all starts with confidence. It all starts with your ability, number one, to acknowledge that you're valuable, and second, to come up with a foolproof plan to articulate that value to your clients. But once you master that, the sky is the limit. We had two people in our session this morning who've reported.

One is, Liana Newell, out of Southwest Florida, went and after taking the class and and and looking through, like, our loyalty agreement and understanding kind of the process of articulating value, she scratched off the three percent that she was gonna ask for, and she went and asked for four and a half and then five percent.

Right? Jared out of Orlando did the same thing heading into a presentation today. So guys, like, this is not only an opportunity for you to be cautious. This is not only an opportunity for you to be like, man, I don't really know what it's gonna be like. This is an opportunity to take territory.

Right? I've been saying it at the end of every class, like, there's some weirdness out there, so let's be the weirdest, and let's get weird. Right? Like, go out there and don't be afraid.

Like, I wanna hear about the first LBT agent who got ten percent on a buyer brokerage agreement. That's what fires me up because, like I said, I'm not the compliance guy. I'm a agent at heart. I've run a team of multiple agents over the years.

Like, for me, it's the wild west, and we will get exactly what we want out of it. Right? So your understanding of that, it's it it's awesome. So I'm I'm excited to share all of my resources to take you guys back and work with everyone just on articulating that value because confidence is step one.

Knowing that the sky is not falling is step two. And step three is going out there and taking what's ours. Right? Because you know that the average agent doesn't have that.

The average agent is gonna be timid. The average agent is gonna, like, ask for less, but nothing average about us. Right? Nothing average people on the East Coast that are up at ten PM listening to a webinar.

So it's you'll get it.

Yeah. I I love it, man. So, David's class should be a knowledge base by tomorrow. It takes us about twenty four hours to get them down on a Zoom.

Tracy is is kinda taking the reins on that. So Zoom processes it for some number of hours, then we download it. We put it in Wistia, and then we put it in the knowledge base. So expect to see David's class in there sometime by midday.

We will report it here. And like I said, we're gonna make David's class part of the, the the the BBA marathon and kinda week two there and get it on the official schedule. And then the concepts that that David uses are gonna be built into, again, some of our listing power tools products going forward. So a lot of really exciting stuff there, you know, as we just continue to adapt.

And I I think what's really interesting is, like, hearing these stories, getting the feedback, seeing what works is helping us better prepare, like, where do we bring value as a brokerage. Right? Step one is we need our agents to believe and understand and and see their own value. And then where do we come behind that with with bringing value and really watching the play develop.

This is analogy I use a lot kinda with the leadership team internally across all my businesses is like a great running back, you know, in the NFL. They they take that extra half a second to watch the play develop, to find that hole in the line before they they run straight through, and that's how they get the most yardage. And that's really I think about how we're we're approaching this and looking at this by having these five conversations a day. We are watching the play develop.

Right? We are seeing where the other reckless drivers are running us off the road. We're seeing where there are opportunities. We're hearing real time results like from the two agents that David mentioned that are going out in the field and they are negotiating and they are winning.

And it really is fantastic to see. And, you know, again, the the media wants to take us the other way. Right? I mean, I saw this this, I would call it a deceptive article recently that said, like, buyer's agent commissions are crashing and and it was like point zero zero seven.

I mean, it was such a small number. It was insane. But they they built the graph to look like it was falling off a cliff, you know, to show this very tiny drop that was probably like three hundred dollar drop, you know, in buyer's agent commission or whatever. But they made the chart look very inflammatory.

So we have the media telling us that we're worth less. We have the media telling us that commissions are dropping. And and honestly, I think some of that was just that because we weren't fully able to negotiate commissions yet because the the change hadn't happened, but I think sellers were already starting to take buyer broker commission out of their offers. Right?

So sellers are saying, hey, I don't have to offer buyer's agent commission anymore. I saw it on the news, whatever. And then buyer's agent didn't have the mechanism yet to protect themselves to go in with a fully executed buyer broker agreement with the compensation addendums. Like, some of those mechanics were just missing.

And so I think the little bit I mean, the very very small drop we saw leading up to the the the settlement, I think, was driven by that. Because I'm a big believer that markets are efficient. Right? If if overall, if if the economics of our industry were broken, someone would have already fixed them.

Right? I mean, Redfin has been trying to do it for twenty years. There are there were no rules that that that stopped commission rebating. Right?

And look, there are definitely savvy buyers out there who are already negotiating commission rebates from buyer's agents, commission rebates, you know, whatever. Discounted commissions on the selling side. Like this idea that commissions weren't negotiable just isn't the case. You know, we trust me, I see it.

Right? We did four thousand transactions last month. We touched a lot of transactions at LPT. I've touched a lot of transactions in my career on the mortgage side.

I see what happens on the closing statements, and there absolutely have always been consumers who are able to negotiate.

And so now, I really think this putting the power in the hands of each client's representative. Right? Their agent. The buyer's agent is negotiating with the buyer.

The seller's agent is negotiating with the seller. That means each person is showing their own value. And again, showing up with that value and and look, being a part of these classes like David said, you know, ten ten o'clock at night, we got a couple hundred agents on here. It's fantastic.

You all are preparing yourselves to go in there and win and show that value because little nuggets you pick up from us, you know, the things you hear that you can then kinda repeat back and have this deeper understanding of what's happening, what we're seeing, what's working, what's not working. That is what allows you to go in there and build that value. And, yeah, ask for four percent commission. Ask for five percent commission.

Look, I think I think for for low price point homes, you know, a higher commission is a hundred percent justified. Right? I mean, at the end of the day, it's dollars. Right?

You can't percentages do not feed our families, dollars do. And I just I think this extra control now that we have is really going to lead to a more balanced industry going forward. And and look, we're we're excited to be a pioneer with it. We're excited to be a two year old company that's grown as fast as we have to be in a position to have these conversations.

A leadership team that is dedicated to, again, giving up time five times a day for two weeks straight to be here with you to have these conversations. You know, these are all the things that should make you feel really confident about where you are right now in this transition. And then that confidence is there for you. Right?

That confidence is for you to to draft off of. That confidence is for you to take on that next listing appointment so you can win. So, with that, Natalie, what do you wanna add here? I know we got we got you hanging out as well with us at ten o'clock at night.

I love it.

Yeah. I mean, David, your passion is, contagious.

Make sure you guys can hear me. Right? Because I just got a notification. Can you guys hear me?

Can you hear me? Yes. Okay. Perfect. Okay. So your passion there was really contagious. Right?

I love it.

I just wanna encourage everyone to Jen's point. Like, knowledge dispels fear. Right? And we're we're having these conversations with our buyers, with our sellers.

We need to have the confidence, as we already said, have the knowledge to disarm all of those objections and to give them the energy that we have taken on. I mean, energy is contagious, right, to David's point. Everybody was doing a heart, a thumbs up, but, you know, a celebration in the chat when he was talking. Same thing when you're interacting with your buyer or seller. It's really important that you're conveying that confidence and energy that you have, to them as well. So, I'm really excited. I think this is, leveling the playing field in a sense for a lot of agents.

You know, I I'm I'm happy to dig into this more with you all and, just appreciate opportunity to be here.

So Yeah.

Very cool. I I hope you guys heard, like, this continuous theme of, you know, in order for you to be able to articulate your value, you have to have the confidence when you're going in there to articulate that value. Like, without the confidence, it's going to be very hard to do that. And, you know, as Natalie mentioned, having the knowledge is going to help you have that confidence.

Right? So once you've obtained that knowledge, now it's how do you have that purposeful and organized approach, which you can alleviate a lot of that anxiety of being in this new world. So you can go in there with that confidence because that confidence will translate to your customer. They're gonna feel it.

They're gonna experience it. You know, those are basic principles that we've experienced historically. Like, before when you went to a listing presentation, if you went in there with the confidence and the purposeful and organized approach, you're gonna set yourself apart versus somebody else who did not. And we're hearing all these headlines and so forth that are hitting the news.

It it's funny because there's going to be a dynamic in which your customers don't know any better. Your customers are not following the headlines other agents are. And what does that do? It gives you the advantage because now the other agents are gonna be fearful.

The other agents are gonna have those anxieties. They're not gonna go in there with that confidence, but you are. Because we're taking these next few days, we're rolling up our sleeves, we're getting the work, we're getting the knowledge, and it's gonna make it easier for us to be able to articulate that value to the customer because we are showing that confidence to them. So I know we're creeping up on time here, so I'll kick it to Robert for some, final words.

Yeah. I know. Look, guys, a big shout out to everybody, you know, joining us here at ten o'clock at night, both on the panel side and our agent side.

You know, bottom line is you you your belief and your value is step one. And then from there, you know, I love where David said, let's get a little weird. Let's get a little wild. Like, let's go in there.

Let's show up differently. That was a big a big slogan at Listing Power Tools, you know, show up differently. This idea of, like, wowing your clients, you know, these are all so important to this to where we're going. And, you know, I think there is this need to to believe in yourself, to to be able to articulate that.

And and a lot of this is not just scripting. It's it's having the knowledge so that when your client ask the questions, you can answer honestly. You can answer transparently. You know, you can be like, look, I was on forty hours worth of training in the last week on this.

You know, how many agents are gonna be able to say that? Like, these are the things that help you show that value to your consumer and that that really is what it's all about. And so, you know, we're gonna continue to teach these every time we have these classes. There's gonna be new nuggets, new little things to pick up.

That is the beauty of doing these live so many times. You know, we're gonna kick it back off tomorrow morning with the the morning coffee at at nine AM. You know, we try to keep these in those thirty minute concise, you know, bite sized nuggets so you guys can consume them and then get back and and do your job and do what you need to do and meet with folks and then get back into it couple hours later. You're never more than three or four hours away from one of these zooms.

If it's helping you, I I saw in the chat that anxiety is going down. People are feeling more confident. Like, that is that's what this is all about. Like, that's what we're here to do.

That is the purpose of these meetings is to help you have that exact experience. So everybody make it a great night. Get some sleep on the East Coast, West Coast. I know y'all are just getting going.

And, we'll catch you back at, at nine AM eastern time tomorrow morning for BBA coffee, and we're gonna keep rolling. We've got we got eight more days of these. So stick with us, keep learning, keep winning, and, and and keep understanding how to show that value. Make it a great night, LPT fam.

Feedback

What's the name of David's class?
Danielle Sloan (8/16/2024 at 12:04 PM)
Hi Danielle! It's called "Creating Opportunity". You can find the link in LPT Connect, in the search bar type in David Lewis or creating opportunity and it will pop up. I have attached the link here for you as well. Have a great day! https://help.lpt.com/kb/a1410/national-nar-mindset-training-bba-and-creating-opportunity-w-david-lewis.aspx
Christina Bonilla (8/16/2024 at 12:52 PM)